编者按：2025年9月底，中国人民大学重阳金融研究院院长、全球领导力学院院长王文应邀接受挪威东南大学国际关系学教授、著名政治学者格伦·迪森（Glenn Diesen）YouTube专访。这是继6月双方对话被译成8种语言在全球广泛传播以来的再度对谈，聚焦中国发展模式、“去美国化”及10月13日-17日即将召开的明德战略对话2025系列活动等议题，访谈上线后迅速引发500多条肯定性的热评（明德战略对话2024可点击）。现将对话视频及中英文内容发布如下：（中文约8000字，预计阅读时间9分钟）

中文版对话内容

01

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迪森：我今天想和您讨论的是中印关系的发展。在东亚，中印两国家无疑是欧亚大陆上的两个巨人。通常的假设是，如果我们能让“大块头”的关系理顺，那么其他“小块头”的问题也会相对容易解决。所以，您认为在协调中印两国利益、奠定欧亚合作基础的过程中最大的挑战是什么？

王文：这是一个非常好的问题，也是对中国十分重要的问题，或许在印度同样重要。实际上我去过印度三次，我亲眼见证了它的快速崛起。如今印度已经成为世界第五大经济体，然而，印度仍明显弱于中国。

印度的GDP大约只有中国的20%，印度的发电量只有中国的18%，印度的工业产出仅为中国的10%，基础设施方面的差距在中印之间则更为明显。例如，中国已有5万公里高铁，而印度至今还没有。两国人口虽然都在14亿左右，但我们都知道，正如您提到的，上世纪80年代，中印两国的实力大致相当。

但问题在于40年后，为何中国拉开了与印度的差距？我认为，在谈到中印之间的竞争以及关系中的困难之前，我必须先分享三个原因，解释为什么中国逐渐拉开了与印度的差距。

第一，中国有一个强有力的政府以及强有力的执政党领导，保证了战略规划和政策的落实。相比之下，印度政党更为分散，行政效率也相对较低。

第二，中国的国内治理水平不断提升。例如，中国加强了14亿人民的国家认同，提升了城市安全，改善了基础设施，推动了社会服务均等化，建设低碳环境，开展反腐败，实施有效的产业政策，完善医疗保障，实现全民教育并彻底消除绝对贫困。而在这些方面，印度的表现要差得多。

第三，中国的对外开放水平持续提高。中国是全球外资的主要磁石，营商环境也在不断改善。即便面对美国投资，中国依然保持友好态度。但相比之下，印度的营商环境仍然相对较差。

所以当我们谈论中印之间的困难或者印度未来的崛起时，我们必须对比当下中印之间的差距。但即便存在这些差距，也并不意味着否认印度的崛起。相反，我认为即便在今天，许多中印学者都在关注中国的崛起以及中印之间的差距，或者中印之间的竞争。

虽然存在差距，但我承认印度有巨大的潜力。例如，印度的人口结构更年轻，并且拥有一个潜力巨大的消费市场。所以我认为，如果印度能够持续推进国内改革，采取开放政策，改善营商环境，消除约2亿人口的绝对贫困，并解决大约30%的文盲率问题，我相信印度的未来是光明的。

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因此，我的预测是，到2050年，世界上最强大的四个国家将会是：中国、美国、俄罗斯和印度。那欧洲呢？我认为，如果欧洲能够更好地推动一体化，并妥善解决移民问题，也许，欧洲一定会进入前五。

02

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迪森： 我想谈谈中国模式。十年前的中国经济与今天大不相同。起初它像亚洲“四小龙”，以简单制造业为主，随后不断向价值链上游攀升，如今已在关键技术领域占据优势。您如何看待这一发展，以及中国经济未来的走向？

王文： 这是一个极为重要且关键的问题。如果你研究中国过去十年的变化，你会发现中国发生了巨大的转型。这种转型既是我研究的重点，也是西方普遍忽视的一个关键特征。

实际上，下个月我们将邀请来自美国和几个欧洲国家的政治家、学者和媒体人士到中国进行深入调研并参加一次极具意义的明德战略对话——明年我也希望邀请您到中国进行深入研究。我们希望并打算让世界发现中国的转型，特别是在过去十年。

让我向您展示过去十年中国经历的六个被西方忽视的重要斗争。

首先是，反贫困斗争。如您所知，在过去十年中，中国已经消除了1亿人的绝对贫困，并提前十年完成联合国可持续发展目标：2030年零贫困目标。此外，通过数字经济和人工智能技术，中国正在促进社会服务的平等获取并建设一个便利高效的社会和共同繁荣。

例如，在中国无现金支付，对我来说，我已经很多个月甚至很多年没有使用现金支付了。同时还有便利的交通，以及更低犯罪率的城市。中国的城市非常安全，任何访问过中国的人都知道，现在在中国城市的生活比西方大多数城市更便利。

第二是，反腐败斗争。在过去十年中，至少500万中国官员因腐败受到惩处，包括警告、降职、监禁甚至死刑。没错，死刑！所以，目前，中国无疑是对政府官员监督最严格的国家之一，因为我们都知道腐败是人类的顽疾。中国在反腐败方面仍面临巨大挑战，但说实话，与西方政府面临的“制度性腐败”相比，中国现在已经做出了更大的努力。

第三是，反污染斗争。十年前，中国城市仍然遭受严重的雾霾、土壤污染和水污染。但现在生态已经发生了巨大的转变。生态文明和低碳发展已经成为中国的国家政策。中国已成为主要经济体中在落实《巴黎气候协定》方面表现最佳的国家。

第四是，反封锁斗争。数十年来，美国对中国实施了技术封锁和贸易制裁。作为回应，中国加强了科技创新并赶上了第四次工业革命。所以，目前中国和美国已经成为世界上人工智能最强大的国家，超越了欧洲和日本等老牌发达国家。

第五是，反危机斗争。在过去十年中，中国解决了房地产泡沫，化解了地方债务，清理了资本市场，并推动高质量发展。所以，现在中国经济比以前更健康。相比之下，现在更多人在讨论美国发生金融危机的可能性。

第六，最后一点是，反霸权斗争。在过去十年中，中国一直反对美国霸权主义，提出“一带一路”倡议，积极参与全球治理，改革国际体系，并致力于构建人类命运共同体，建设享有持久和平、普遍安全、共同繁荣、开放包容以及清洁美丽的世界，这是我们的目标。

因此，我将这六个“反”概括为：反贫困、反污染、反腐败、反封锁、反危机和反霸权。这六个“反”斗争，在过去十年已经非常明显地证明了：中国不是1940年代的苏联，也不是1980年代的日本。

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中国的崛起不再是对美国霸权的威胁，也不渴望推翻现有的国际秩序或发动新的冷战。相反，它渴望成为国际体系的改革者、建设者和贡献者。

当然，在过去几年中，有些人预测中国将会衰落或崩溃，我不这么认为。中国不会崩溃或衰落，相反我们将变得更强大、更文明、更可持续。即使现在我们仍面临很多困难，但我对中国的未来充满信心。

03

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迪森：我想，回到中国和印度的关系问题上来。如果有一个像美国这样的霸权国家想要对抗中国，就有机会在关于中国和印度实力差距越来越大这件事上迎合印度的关切。

但显然，美国已经意识到世界正变得更加多极化，他们并未放弃恢复单极格局的这一目标，而他们采取的其中一种手段就是促使世界各国减少与中国的经济往来，然后与美国更紧密地联系起来。我想说，这在欧洲是非常成功的。

欧洲已经切断了与俄罗斯的经济联系。我们现在看到，他们最近对伊朗实施的紧急制裁，在我看来是完全不正当的，因为此前他们还曾表示会与国际原子能机构合作。而且现在欧洲方面也面临着要与中国断绝关系的压力。

事实上，欧洲人正在讨论应该对中国实施多少制裁措施以让特朗普先生满意。结果是可以预料的，总是像你在欧洲看到的那样，他们将会更加依赖美国，而美国人可以利用这一点。但印度似乎没有走这条路。相反，他们拒绝了美国提出的让他们切断与俄罗斯和中国关系的压力，取而代之的是，他们正在使经济关联多样化。

我猜全世界都知道，莫迪时隔七年登上了赴中国参加上合组织会议的航班，但中印间的关系仍有许多问题需要解决。改善中印关系的主要障碍是什么？尽管不可能解决所有问题，但你认为在未来几年内有哪些切实可行的目标可以实现呢？

王文：在回答中印关系的问题之前，我想就中美关系给你一个答复。我必须告诉你一个非常重要的发现，我的研究结果。实际上在2025年上半年，中国出口贸易额增长了2.9%，超过了国际平均贸易增长率1.7%。从这点来看，你提到的美国战略——迫使世界各国减少与中国经济联系——我认为已经失败了。

因为中国的对外贸易增长仍处于上升态势，比国际贸易的平均增长速度要快得多。但相对的，我要告诉你的是，中国现在正在推行“去美国化”战略。这很重要，但很多西方媒体忽视了。这包括五点：

一是贸易的“去美国化”。2018年前，中国对美出口约占中国出口总额的20%。2025年前8个月，这个数据降到了9%，同时，中国出口额却在年年增长，稳居世界第一出口大国的地位。

二是军事与科技的“去美国化”。我不知道你是否看了9月初的天安门阅兵，所有的中国军事武器均为国产，其中许多在性能上已与美国持平甚至更具优势。

三是意识形态的“去美国化”。目前中国追求自主的知识体系。中国学术界越来越多的专家认为，美国所谓“普世价值”是虚伪的。

四是高科技的“去美国化”。目前中国在推动人工智能创新上有自己的路。比如Deepseek、机器人、华为公司，都在追求自主创新。

五是教育的“去美国化”。10年前，每年大约有30万中国学生赴美求学，现在不超过10万人。

过去十年，中国与全球南方国家的联系在加强。你可能知道，中非关系、中国与拉丁美洲的关系、中国与东南亚的关系、中国与欧亚国家关系、中国与中东的关系都达到了历史最好水平。

与此同时，美国却退出了许多国际组织，包括世界卫生组织、巴黎协定、联合国教科文组织等。从这个角度看，不是中国被美国孤立，而是美国被世界孤立。这是一个非常重要的现象。

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至于你提到的中印关系，我想自从印度总理莫迪今年9月初在中国天津出席上海合作组织峰会以来，中印关系已有改善。中印两国，都是文明大国，会有足够的智慧去处理相互之间的难点与困难。两国关系的潜力很大，不会被目前的边境分歧所阻碍。

我也认为美国无法挑拨或破坏中印关系的改善。因为越来越多来自中国和印度的学者坐在一起，讨论两国之间的争议。因此我们对双边关系的改善越来越有信心。

让我们设想一下这两个共计将近30亿人口国家之间的合作场景吧。我认为它一定会改变世界。现如今，如何推动国际体系改革、怎样让世界变得越来越好，正逐渐成为中印两国学术界的共识。所以，这就是我们两国之间真正的变化。

04

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迪森：好的，这是一个很好的观点。因为只要你和印度人交谈，平等的问题总会被提及。看起来这正是构成他们许多担忧的核心问题。上世纪七、八十年代还或多或少存在的那种平等感随着中国的崛起已经完全消失了。

似乎有些变化正在发生，而且我认为这种趋势不仅出现在印度，日本或韩国也有类似的情况。人们开始意识到世界正在发生根本性的变化，并开始重新审视对美国联盟体系的一些承诺，因为这总是使他们与中国的关系更加紧张，也破坏了找到其他解决方案的可能性，这些解决方案本可能带来双赢的结果。

我的最后一个问题，您如何看待金砖国家以及上海合作组织的作用？我想这不仅仅是经济体系的重组，也是更广泛的框架的重组，它是如何调整文明之间的关系的呢？

因为如果我们只看经济方面，有趣的是大多数国家都希望有机会实现多元化发展，不仅仅依赖于一个强大的技术、金融或交通廊道中心。所以我认为，至少在西方，人们对于中国的误解在于，美国主导世界的另一种选择是中国主导世界。但这不是中国人真正倡议的，也不是这些机构在促进的，而是以多极体系反对单极或霸权体系，这在经济和文明之间的关系方面是如何运作的呢？

王文：谢谢您教授，我觉得您非常聪明，因为您能够注意到全球南方地区所发生的这种极其细微同时又极其巨大的变化。说实话，如今在西方学术界，很少有学者注意到金砖国家或上海合作组织所带来的巨大变化。实际上今年5月我在巴西举行的金砖+预热峰会上做了演讲，阐述了金砖机制的文明进步作用。我在演讲中提到了三个要点，引起了大家的广泛关注。

一是金砖机制打破单极霸权，推动全球权力结构的根本性调整。

二是创新文明对话，努力超越中心–边缘的交往范式。

三是重塑发展伦理，全力证明现代化道路的多样性。

现在越来越多的国家在崛起。如果你去非洲，你会看到埃塞俄比亚的崛起，尼日利亚的崛起，坦桑尼亚的崛起，以及全球南方力量的兴起。如果你前往拉丁美洲，你可以看到巴西的崛起。如果你去东盟国家，你能看到印度尼西亚的崛起，马来西亚的崛起。他们都处在现代化的上升道路上。

这就是为什么在今年9月初，上海合作组织峰会在中国天津举行时，习近平主席提出全球治理倡议。这是中国在全球发展倡议、全球安全倡议和全球文明倡议之后的第四个全球倡议，这个倡议再次表明，中国既不追求国际革命，也不谋求新的霸权。

在中国，我们讨厌霸权这个词。我们不想推动国际革命，而是要与新兴经济体合作，让世界变得更好。因为我们注意到许多新兴国家，不仅是一个国家的崛起，我们发现许多国家同时崛起了。

从这个角度看，你提到了很多次金砖国家或者上海合作组织，事实上都是一场静悄悄的文明革命。这两大机制在解决一个已经困扰了西方500年的国际关系现实主义难题，它是我们学习国际关系理论时遇到的重要问题：我们会面临如此一种困境，那就是当一个或多个国家崛起时，应该怎么办。

应该战争吗？应该争霸吗？应该革命吗？不。现在中国、巴西等国家都在想，应该提高合作水平、支持多边主义、推动文明对话、建立战略互信、促进国际体系改革等等。这就超越了西方文明过去500年领衔的文明形态，步向新的人类文明形态或范式，这就是我研究中的重点。当然我也承认金砖国家和上海合作组织还面临不少困难，但是我们必须知道我们总会面临困难，但困难与分歧恰恰是进步的动力。

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随着新兴经济体联合体变得越来越团结、越来越有力量，我们始终相信未来的世界会变得更好。这就是为什么你提到今年7月在巴西举行的金砖国家+峰会，今年9月在中国天津举办上海合作组织峰会，所有新兴国家，他们很谦虚，只想团结一致，他们也渴望和平繁荣，为了多边主义而行动。

这就是为什么我认为在未来，这个更好的世界不是由西方来创造的，而是由新兴经济体来领衔。

关于美国，我认为美国可能仍然强大，尤其在经济、金融和创新层面，依然强大。但我们不得不说，美国的软实力正在迅速下降，而且美国的霸权体系正在衰落。这就是现实。

那么其他新兴经济体未来的表现如何呢？我认为会团结一致，为更好的世界多边主义而努力，我们正努力共同构建一个更美好的未来——这是我的观察。

迪森：当冷战在欧洲落幕时，像乔治·凯南这样的传奇美国外交官曾指出，目睹新世界中那些本可创造截然不同格局的机遇被白白浪费，实在令人沮丧。他深感失望的是，在自己所属的政治阶层中，唯一能找到的政治想象力竟是扩张零和军事集团、削弱对手，重蹈旧日思维模式的覆辙。

因此，我始终怀抱乐观与希望，相信基于积极解决方案的新型多极国际体系终将诞生——一个更具建设性的世界秩序。非常感谢您拨冗聆听，我深表感激。

英文版对话内容

Diesen:Likewise. So what I wanted to discuss with you today was the developing relations between the China and India. 

So in East Asia these are of course the two massive Eurasian giants, and assumption is often that if we can get the big pieces to fit to work out, then the smaller pieces will fall in line more easily if we can get the big things. 

But well, what are the main challenges in terms of harmonizing the interests of China and India as the foundation of this eurasian setting?

WangWen:Yeah well, this is a very good question. And also the very important issues in China, maybe as well as in India. 

Actually I've been to India 3 times, and have personally witnessed its rapid rise. Now India become the world fifth largest Economy, but however India remains significantly weaker than China. India's GDP is only about 20% of China's, India's electricity generation is only 18% of China's, and India's industrial output is only about 10% of China's, and the infrastructure gap between India and China is even greater. 

For example China has 50,000km of high speed rail, while India has none. So the two countries have both population of 1.4 billion, but as we all know that as you mentioned that in the 1980s. China and India were roughly equal in strength. But the problem is that 40 years later why has China widen the gap?

I believe, cause before I will talking about the competition and difficulty between India and China Relationship. I have to share with you three reasons about why China wider the gap between China and India.

I think, first. China has a strong government and a strong political party leadership, ensuring a strategic planning and policy implementation. In contrast, India has more diverse political parties and relatively low administrative efficiency.

Second, China's domestic governance has improved. For example, China has strengthen the national identity of its 1.4 billion people, enhanced urban security, improved the infrastructure and equalized social services, made low-carbon environment, Anti-Corruption and implement effective industrial policy, health protection, achieved the universal education and eradicated poverty. In contrast, India is much worse in these regards. 

Third point, China's level of openness to the outside world is improving. China is a major magnet for foreign investment, and China business environment continues to be improved, even with US investment China remain friendly. But in in contrast, India business environment remains relative poor. 

So when we are talking about the difficulties between China and India, or the future of India rise, we have to compare nowadays, the gap between India and China. But even that these gaps do not mean a denial of India rise. On the contrary, I think that even nowadays many India and China scholars are paying attention to the China's rise and the gap between India and China, or the competition between China and India.

I think even that I admit that India has a very huge potential. For example India has a younger population and a consumer market with considerable potential. So I think, if India can continue to advance domestic reforms, adopt open policies, improve its business environment, and eliminate absolute poverty among its 200 million people, and its illiteracy rate of around 30%, I believe India's future is promising.

So my prediction is that by 2050 the world's four most powerful country will be: China, United States, Russia and India. How about Europe? I think if Europe can better promote integration and address immigration issues, perhaps I think, Europe will be sure to be among the top five. Yeah that's my opinion.

Diesen：But I also do want to touch on the Chinese model because if we discuss the extent to which India can emulate China. It's also worth noting that China itself is changing a lot. 

That is the Chinese economy today, it's very very different from what we saw only a decade ago. but, I guess in many ways the Chinese began much like the other Asian Tigers doing the very easy manufacturing, and then they climbed up the value chains, and now beginning to take leadership in key technologies. But how do you see the most recent developments within this evolution of the Chinese Economy, the direction it's taking?

Wang Wen：Yeah, I think this is a very very important question and also it's a very crucial issues cause if you study China's change in the past decade, you can find that China's huge transformation. So this huge transformation is a key focus of my research and also is a key characteristics of the west neglect of China. 

Actually, next month I will invite politicians, scholars, and media professionals from the United States and several European countries to China. For in-depth research and highly significant Mingde Strategic Dialogue. Maybe next year I'd like to invite you, Professor Diesen to China for in-depth research. We want and intend to allow the world to discover the China transformation, especially in the past decade. Let me show you about the very important 6 struggle over the past decade that have been overlooked by the west.

First, it's the Anti-Poverty struggle. As you may know over the past decade, China has eliminated absolute poverty for 100 million people achieving the zero poverty goal of the United Nations SDG 2030 ten years ahead of the Schedule.

Furthermore, through the digital Economy and AI technology in the past one decade, China is promoting equal access to social services and build a convenient and efficient society or shared prosperity. 

For example, these include virtual payment, no cash payments in China, you know even for me, I have many, many months or many, many years, I pay without cash in China, and also the convenient transportation, right. And also the lower crime cities.

You know the city in China are very very safe,Anyone who has visited Chinathey will recognize that life in a Chinese cityis now more convenient than most of the city in west.The Second is Anti-Corruption struggle.Over the Past decade at least Five million,yeah, Five Million Chinese officials have been punished for corruption.Yes, Five Million Chinese officials have been punished for corruptionwith Warnings, Demotions, Imprisonment and even the Death Penalty.Yes, Death Penalty. So currently, China is undoubtedly the country with the strictestoversight of board officials in the world.Cause we all know that corruption is a chronic human scourge.

China still faces enormous challenges in Anti-Corruption,but to be honestly, compared to the institutionalized corruptionfaced by the western government,China now has made far greater effortsto against the corruption. The third, is Anti-Pollution struggle. Ten years ago, Chinese city still suffers from severe smog,soil pollution and water pollution.But now the ecology has transferred dramatically.

Ecological civilization and low carbon developmentnow have become the China National Policy.

China has become the best major economyin implement the Paris Climate agreement.The fourth,there's an anti blockade struggle.For decade the US has imposed a technological blockadeand trade sanctions on China.

In response China has strengthened scientific and technological innovation and caught up with the 4th Industrial Revolution.So currently China and the UShave become the world most powerful country in AI.Surpassing establishment development country like Europe and Japan.

Fifth,there's Anti-Crisis.Over the past decade, China has addressed the housing bubble,resolved local debts, cleaned up the capital marketand promoted high quality developments.So now the Chinese economy is healthier than before.In contrast, more people now are discussing the possibilityof the financial crisis in the United States.Sixth, final point,there is an anti-hegemony struggle.

So over the past decade, China has consistently opposed the US hegemony,proposed the Belt and Road Initiative,actively participated in global governance,reformed the international systemand committed itself to build a community with a shared future for mankindthat enjoying lasting peace, universal securitycommon prosperity, openness, inclusive, and a clean and beautiful world, this is our target.So let me share you the six Anti: Anti-Poverty, Anti-Pollution, Anti-Corruption,Anti-Blockade, Anti-Crisis and Anti-Hegemony.

So these six Anti Struggles, I think it's very obviousthat the past decade has very obvious demonstrated thatChina is not a Soviet Union of the 1940s, or the Japan of the 1980s.China's rise is no longer a threat of USA hegemony,nor does it aspire to overthrow the existing international order, or start a new cold war.Instead it's aspire to be a Reformer, Builder and contributor of the international system.Of course, some people in the past a few years,they predicted that China will be decline or China will be collapse.

No, no, no I don't think so, China will not collapse or decline,but we will instead grow stronger, more civilized and more sustainable.Even now we still face a lot of difficulties, but I have full confidence on China's future.

Diesen：Well I wanted to circle bit about back to the to the issue of the relations between China and India.Because I always make the point that if you would have a hegemonic power like the United States who would want to counter China, there's always the opportunity of appealing to India's concerns about being about the growing disparity between China and India in terms of power.

But it does appear that the United States is recognizing that the world is becoming more multipolar,they haven't given up on the ambitions to restore the unipolar system.

And one of their ways to do it is to make countries around the world reduce their economic ties to China,and then link themselves more exclusively to the United States.I would say that this has been very successful with the Europeansthat Europe has severed their economic ties with Russia.

We see now recently they put the snapback sanctions on Iran on very I would say fraudulent basis,given that they were talking about working with the IAEA. and there's also now pressure for the Europeans to also cut ties with China.Indeed the Europeans are now discussing how many sanctions should we put on China to make Mr Trump happy.And while the results is very predictable it's always as you see in Europe, there will be even more dependence on the United States,and this is something that the Americans can exploit.

But India, they didn't go down this path it seems.Instead they rejected the US pressure demand that they cut ties with both the Russians and the Chinese,and instead they're now diversifying their economic dependencies.

I guess this was very open to the whole world when Modi after seven years boarded a flight to China for the SCO meeting.And again, China and India still have many problems to iron out their relationship.But what are the main impediments though to improve China India ties,or again, one can't solve all problems,but what do you think is realistic to achieve over the next few years?

Wang Wen：Before I answer the India China relationship,I have to give you a response about the US and China relationship.

I have to tell you a very important secret, my research result.Cause actually in the first half of 2025, I mean this year,China's foreign trade grew by 2.9%,exceeding the average international trade grew rate of 1.7%.So from this point, the US strategy you mentioned,the US strategy of forcing country along the world to reduce their economic tie with China,I think this strategy has failed, right?

Cause the China's foreign trade grew is still blown up, much faster than the average international trade grew rate, right? But instead I have to tell you is thatChina now is pursuing a "de-Americanization" strategy.This is very important,but a lot of western media overlooked this point.This include five key points. 

First, "de-Americanization" of trade.Before 2018, China's export to the US amounted for about 20% of China's total exports.In the first eight months of the 2025,this figure dropped to 9%.Meanwhile, China Export has continued to grow annually,maintain its position as the world's largest exporter.

Second, "de-Americanization" of military and technological development.I don't know whether you watched the Tiananmen Square of military parade in the early September.All Chinese military weapon in the parade are hundred percent domestically produced.And many are more advanced than those of the United States.

Third, "de-Americanization" of ideology.Currently China is pursuing an independent intellectual system.And we, I mean scholars professors in China,have a clear understanding of so called American conceptso called such as democracy, or freedom, or the rule of law and human rights,so called American characteristics.And the China Academy now, I mean more and more Chinese professors,now is increasingly convinced of the hypocrisy of American so called universal value.

Fourth, the "de-Americanization" of high technology.So currently China has our own path to promote innovation in AI.For example, a company like Deepseek,  Robotic, and Huawei, right?

Are all presume independent innovation.Fifth, the "de-Americanization" of education.10 years ago, I don't know whether you know, about 300,000 Chinese young students went to the United States annually.

But now the number is less than 100,000.So over the past decade China's ties with a country in the global south have strengthened.As you may know,China-African relations, China-Latin American relations,China-South East Asia relations, China-Eurasia relations,China-Middle East relations,have all reached historical high levels.So at the same time, the United States has withdrawn from many international organizationsincluding WHO, the Paris Agreement, and the UNESCO.So from this point,it is not China that is being isolated by the United States,but the United States that is being isolated by the world.This is a very important phenomenon.

So as far you mentioned the China India relationship,I believe that since India Prime Minister Modi attended Shanghai Corporation Organization Summit in Tianjin, China in early September of this year,China-India relationship now have improved.So both of us, I mean both China and India,are great civilizationsand possess sufficient wisdom to handle the difficulties and challenges we face.

The potential for bilateral relationship between China and India is enormous and will not be hindered by the current border dispute.Also I think the United States cannot provoked or separate India-China relationship improvement.Because more and more scholars from China and India, now we are here togetherwe are talking about the dispute between the two countries.

So we have more and more confidence in thebilateral relationship improvement.So I think, let me imagine a cooperation between the two countries with a population of nearly 3 billion.

I think it's bound to change the world.So I think nowadays, how to push the international system reform,how to change the world better and better,gradually become the common sense between the India and China's academy.So this is the real change between our two countries.

Diesen:Yeah well it's a good point, because the parity I think that's whenever you talk to people in India, it seems that this is what underpins a lot of the concern that all parity, which more or less there in the late 70s or early 80s is all gone now with the rise of China.

Something appears to be changingand I guess it's not just India,we see similar trends from Japan or South Korea The recognition that the world is fundamentally changing and start to reconsider some of the commitments to the US alliance systemas that puts them always in greater tensions with China, and undermines the possibility of finding some other solutions,they could have some win-win outcomes.

But just my last question I wanted to ask what do you see the roles of BRICS, as well as the Shanghai Cooperation organization,terms of I guess reorganizing not just economic system but also a wider framework here.

How does it reorganize relations between civilizationsbecause if we only look at the economic aspect, it is interesting that most states would like to have the opportunity to diversify that is not only to be dependent on one center of powerful technology or finance or transportation corridors.

So I think the misperception of China often in the west at least one thing is that the alternative, the US dominated world, is a Chinese dominated world,but again that's not really why the Chinese are proposingalso not what these institutions are facilitating. 

It seems to be opposing the unipolar or hegemonic system with one of multi polarity.How does this work out in terms of economics as well as the relationship between civilizations?

Wang Wen: Thank you Professor, and I think you are very very smartcause you notice such a very tinyor even a simultaneous very huge change from the global south.

Cause nowadays, to be honest, in the western academy,very few scholars noticed the huge change launched by the BRICS or Shanghai Cooperation organization.

So actually in may of this year, I given a speech at the "BRICS+" pre-summit held in Brazil,and outlining the role of the BRICS mechanism in advancing civilizations.I mentioned three key points in the speech, gathered considerable attention.

First, BRICS mechanism break unipolarity hegemony,and promote the fundamental adjustment in the global power structure.

Second, innovating dialogue among civilizations,striving to transcend the "center-periphery" paradigm of interaction.

Third, reshaping development as the ethics and fully demonstrating the diversity of path to modernization.

Cause as we all know that nowadays more and more countries rise up.If you go to the Africa,you can see the rise of Ethiopia.The rise of the Nigeria,the rise of the Tanzania,the rise of south ethic.

If you go to the Latin America,you can see the rise of the Brazil.And if you go to the ASEAN countries, you can see the rise of Indonesia, the rise of Malaysia, right? 

They are all in the rising path of the modernization.So that's why in September of this year, I mean the early of this month,Shanghai Cooperation Organization Summit was held in Tianjin, China as I mentioned,President Xi Jinping proposed the Global Governance initiative. 

This is a Chinese fourth global initiative,following the Global Development Initiative, the Global Security Initiative and the Global Civilization Initiative.So this initiative once again demonstrates as mentioned that China is not seeking an international revolution or establishing a new hegemony. 

In China, we dislike hegemony, the word we dislike it.And we don't want to push the international revolution, but rather working with emerging economies to promote a better world.Because we know there are so many emerging economies, not only one country rise up,we found there are many many countries rising up simultaneously.

So from these perspectives, you mentioned a lot, the BRICS or the SCO, Shanghai Cooperation organization,both of these mechanisms are in fact a quite civilizational revolution.

These two major mechanisms are addressing a realism dilemma in international relations theorythat has plagued the West for 500 years,that is the question very important cause when we studied international relations theories, we will face such a dilemma, such a question, that is what should be done when one or more countries rise up.

So should there be war? Should there be hegemony? Should there be revolution?

No, now the countries like China or Brazil are all thinking about improving cooperation, supporting multilateralism, promoting dialogue among civilizations, building strategic trust and promoting reform of the international system.

So this is a move beyond the civilizational model nominated by the western civilization for the past 500 years,and towards a new model or paradise of the human civilizationSo this is what I focus on my research.

But I admit, of course, the BRICS and Shanghai Cooperation Organization still face many difficulties,but we have to know always we have the difficulties,actually these difficulties and differences are precisely the driving force for progress.

So as the emerging economies become increasingly united and powerful, we remain confident that the world of the future will become a better place.

So that's why you mentioned that in not only this July in Brazil, the BRICS plus summit,or this September in Tianjin, China, the Shanghai Cooperation Organization Summit,all the emerging countries, they feel modest, they just want to unit,and also they hurry for the peaceful prosperity,they hurried for the multilateral reason.

So that's why I think that in the future,the better world will not be created by the Westbut lead by the emerging economies.So how about the United States,I think maybe United States, the strengthen, I mean especially the economy strengthen,the financial strengthen, the innovation strengthen, is still very powerful.

But we have to say the soft power of United States is declining very very quickly.And also the hegemonic system of United States is declining now.So that's why there is reality.So how about the other emerging economies do in the future? I think that it united and hurry for the better world multilateralism.And we try to build a better future, that's my observation.

Diesen: When the Cold War came to an end in Europe,the people like George Kennan, the legendary American diplomat,he made the point that it was so depressing to see when in the new world, old opportunities were there to create a vastly different kind of world.

And he was so dismayed that the only thing, only political imagination he found among his own political classwas the idea of expanding zero some military blocksweakening rivals and going back to this kind of mentality.So I tend to be very optimistic and hopeful thata new, more benign multipolar international system kind emerge,based on this positive solution.So thank you so much for your time I really appreciate it.