编者按：2025年6月2日，中国人民大学重阳金融研究院院长、全球领导力学院院长王文应邀接受挪威东南大学国际关系学教授、著名政治学者格伦·迪森（Glenn Diesen）的YouTube专访，围绕世界格局历史性变革、世界体系重构、中华民族伟大复兴的世界意义等话题展开深度对话。该访谈上线后迅速引发全球关注，并被译成西班牙语、俄语、法语、德语、葡萄牙语、意大利语、日语等8种语言。截至目前，已吸引全球300多条热评。来自不同文化背景的网友就中国发展道路、全球治理革新等议题展开热烈讨论。现将专访中英文内容、视频及网友的转评翻译整理如下：（全文约11000字，预计阅读时间30分钟）

▲点击可查看专访全部视频

部分网友的评论：

“为什么每一个中国人似乎都如此理性、讲逻辑、礼貌且有理有据呢？作为一个加拿大人，我学到了很多。我认为中国已经在这场荒唐的贸易战中取得了胜利。”

“中国人民大学是中国的一所知名学府。他身为院长，我对他期待很高。”

“一场非常坦诚且令人愉快的讨论。我希望我们能再次见到王文教授，了解更多中国民众对于外部世界的看法，对我们来说很有益处。”

“米尔斯海默教授应该和王教授进行一次对话。精彩的对话！”

“与这位中国教授的对话非常精彩！他从中方视角出发，结合历史脉络，深入阐释了中国的思维模式与外交实践，尤其是与美国及西方国家的互动。特此称赞迪森教授，您成功地与有学识、背景多元的学者、外交官、经济学家以及地缘政治专家进行了交流。”

“这个世界需要的是平等、统一的声音、和谐共处，而不是仅仅来自美国的单一声音。”

“中国历史悠久且充满智慧，绝非敌人。感谢王文教授和格伦·迪森教授！”

“哇，王文教授的谦逊之风真如清风拂面！我竟感动得眼眶湿润。太久没有在这类关于人类事务的讨论中感受到这种优雅与风范了。”

“中国拥有最强大的制造能力，而美国有最高的国债。”

“中国不是我们的敌人。澳大利亚遥致问候。”

“王文教授睿智卓绝，不仅深谙西方思维逻辑，更洞悉其文明症结所在。惟愿各国政要能悟透此中真谛，避免大衰退的危局。”

“精彩绝伦的访谈，格伦！！更感谢王文教授精彩绝伦的阐释，中国香港遥致问候。”

“杰出的嘉宾，王文教授学识渊博。他为我们带来了对中国历史经验更全面的见解。感谢您纳入了更多‘亚洲视角’。看到并听到那些既不会说也不会读中文的‘非亚洲人’自称为中国专家，实在令人感到沮丧。”

“听一位思路清晰、自信而不失谦逊的演讲者发言，实在令人耳目一新。诚如所言，关税战、科技战、教育战、制裁、热战等种种冲突，恰似冰川表面的浮冰。大大小小的冰块随时可能横向漂移、进退反复，但它们始终被冰川缓慢而难以察觉的整体运动所裹挟向前。当前美国及西方世界相对于全球其他地区，正经历着权力、影响力与财富的相对衰退——这正是冰川运动的客观规律。而中国，确在为人类文明开辟新的通路：一种以全人类和平共处与共同福祉为目标的文明组织方式。点赞中华民族的智慧！”

“王教授对西方帝国主义者和殖民势力衰落长达 500 年的历史进行了逐个世纪的精彩论述，是我之前从未听闻过的。格伦教授，感谢你在节目中分享他的观点。”

专访内容中文版：

格伦·迪森：大家好，欢迎收看本期节目。今天与我们连线的是中国人民大学重阳金融研究院院长、丝路学院副院长王文教授，此外您还身兼多职。不知您如何协调这些工作，做得太出色了。再次欢迎您做客节目。

王文：谢谢迪森教授，好久不见。非常荣幸参加您的节目。

格伦·迪森：谢谢。今天想和您探讨的是中国崛起这个话题，我认为这正在塑造当下的国际格局。我们不妨从两年前的一个引用开始。当时习近平主席对普京总统说：“当今世界正经历百年未有之大变局，而中俄正在携手推动这些变革”。这句话当时引发了广泛关注。面对如此巨变，您如何解读我们身处的这个变革时代？显然，中国正处于这场变革的核心位置。

王文：事实上，那不是习近平主席第一次讲“百年变局”。追溯这一表述的源头，2017年底，习近平主席在接见驻外使节工作会议上发表讲话，第一次提出“百年变局”的概念。此后，“百年变局”成为中国决策层对时局的最经典研判。

正如您所言，过去五到七年间，中国学术界围绕“百年变局”已产出数千篇论文。我在2020年与同事一起写了一本书，叫《百年变局》，后来成了中国的畅销书。我还写过一篇“百年变局”的学术论文，在中国学术界引起较大的反响与转引，成为这个话题最典型的代表作之一。

我对这个“百年变局”的理解，与许多人不太一样。我并不是完全聚焦在“一百年的变局”。那么具体是几个世纪呢？因为按照中文语境里的意思，习主席只强调了“百年”，并没有强调是多少个百年。所以，在我看来，至少有五种“百年”的概念。

第一个是“五百年未有之大变局”。那就是从16世纪大航海时代西方崛起以来后，西方文明出现了五百年来从未有过之衰落。

第二个是“四百年未有之大变局”。那就是17世纪机械革命以来，人类社会进入智能时代带来的前所未有之大变局。17世纪以来的三场科技革命，即机械化、电力化与计算机化，都是在解放着人类的四肢与五官，但是人工智能革命却在解放着我们的大脑。这种巨大的变化，是人类过去400年间从未遇到过的。

第三个是“三百年未有之大变局”。那就是18世纪以来，西方确立的民主政治制度进入从未有过之大衰败。民主固然是件好事，这是一个好词，曾经代表着先进性。但是现在，西方民主政治制度，尤其是美国的民主政体，已经过时。世界需要一场政治制度的升级与革新。

第四个是“两百年未有之大变局”。那就是19世纪以来，西方确立的大学学术分科体系出现了巨大的危机。我们两人都在高校工作，都深切感受到，如今按学科划分专业已显露出严重弊端：经济学解释不了经济现象；政治学解释不了政治现象；社会学解释不了社会现象，等等。整个社会科学面临着前所未有之知识重塑。

第五个，也是最后一个才是“一百年未有之大变局”，这里指的是自二十世纪初形成的国际体系正发生根本性转变，那就是以北大西洋为权力重心的国际体系进入到以西太平洋为重心的权力体系。

以上便是五个层面的变局。简单点说，那就是，五百年未有之文明变局，四百年未有之科技变局，三百年未有之制度变局，两百年未有之知识变局，一百年未有之权力变局。这就是我对当下复杂时局的系统理解。

当然，正如你所提到的，对于许多人来说，只是把“百年变局”视为是西方衰落或者是美国衰落。我觉得，这只是其中的一部分现象。我们还需要从更复杂的角度来看待这个重大的百年变局。现在，国际形势正经历非常复杂的演变，不仅体现在大国之间的权力结构上，包括美国的衰落，还体现在技术层面、知识层面、制度层面以及文明层面。我认为习近平主席提到过这些方面，如今它们在中国非常流行且至关重要。如果你想了解中国当下的想法，可以从这些方面入手。

格伦·迪森：我认为，以更广阔的视角审视这些变革至关重要。若仅聚焦于中美贸易战，关注哪个国家将取代美国成为经济领头羊，未免过于狭隘。我们应当将视野放宽，审视过去五百年来世界格局的演变，包括金融体系的相互关联、技术的突飞猛进，正如您所言，以及工业革命的浪潮。然而，自动化认知领域的变革又与之截然不同。

在探讨了这些宏观层面的变革之后，我想更深入地探讨有关中国的问题：面对这些翻天覆地的变化，中国的外交政策目标和优先事项将如何调整?中国正致力于推动哪些议程？诚然，这些变革同时发生，势必带来巨大的冲击和不确定性。而确保这一变革过程以有序、和平的方式进行，无疑也符合中国的利益。那么，您认为中国的外交政策目标究竟是什么呢?

王文：我认为，要理解当前中国所处的历史方位，这是一个至关重要的问题。但必须指出的是，正如您所提到的，中国外交政策的核心目标始终未曾改变，那就是实现中华民族的伟大复兴。

我为何要强调这一点？因为若你了解中国近百年的历史，便不难理解中华民族对复兴的渴望是多么强烈。自1840年鸦片战争以来，几乎所有西方列强都曾侵略过中国——美国、英国、法国、德国、意大利，甚至奥地利，就连印度也在19世纪末入侵过中国。进入20世纪，日本又发动了侵华战争。从1931年到1945年，长达十四年的抗日战争中，中国付出了三千多万军民伤亡的惨重代价。1937年12月的南京，日军在短短六周内屠杀了三十万中国平民。如今回望这段历史，仍令人难以置信。对于所有中国人而言，这是段极其惨痛的记忆，刻骨铭心。自童年时代，自小学课堂起，老师们就向我们讲述这段历史，告诫我们：落后就要挨打，弱小必遭欺凌。因此，我们必须建设一个强大的国家。国家强盛是维护国家安全与发展的根本保障。看看如今的巴勒斯坦、阿富汗，再看看二十年前的伊拉克、十五年前的利比亚，这些惨痛的教训时刻警醒着中国人，让我们铭记历史的教训。

1949年毛泽东主席在天安门城楼上讲：中国人民从此站起来了。每年的国庆节，电视上都会回放毛主席的这句话。过去76年，中国一直都在为民族复兴而努力。现在，中国已经成为世界第二大经济体，也没有放弃这个梦想。中华民族伟大复兴的中国梦，必将继续传承下去。

但另一方面，中国不想成为复仇的民族，更不想重走过去“国强必霸”、“强者霸凌弱者”的旧时故事。我们不想重复这些。有些人尤其是西方的一些人，总认为中国变强后会入侵其他国家，我觉得，那是他们以小人之心，度君子之腹，是他们对自己黑历史的一种现象折射。他们自己以前是这么做的，所以认为中国也会这么做。

我们经常讲，在过去的76年中，毛泽东时期，中国解决了“挨打”的问题;八十年代邓小平时期，中国解决“挨饿”的问题。现在，习近平时期我们要解决“挨骂”的问题，那就是要获得更多尊重。

所以，过去十多年，中国提出“一带一路”倡议，提出“全球发展倡议”“全球安全倡议”“全球文明倡议”，还提出要构建“人类命运共同体”，就是希望能够让强大的中国更多地获得尊重。

从这个角度看，我认为现在的中国外交政策重点，就是如何通过一系列的合作与斗争，努力为未来的世界做出更大贡献，获得更多的尊重，进而实现民族复兴。我认为这个进程不容易，有的国家并不理解中国的外交哲学，甚至想要遏制中国，此时，中国只能被迫与他们斗争。

但正如我刚才所提到的，斗争是手段，合作才是目的。这些年来，中国与西方一些政治势力做斗争，包括美国政府，但中国不回避与所有国家进行合作，包括如今的美国政府。只要特朗普政府愿意开展合作，我们始终持开放态度;但若其执意推行遏制政策，我们也必将坚决反击。中国外交的核心要义，在于以可持续的战略定力推动国家发展，以不懈的奋斗精神推进民族复兴进程。

格伦·迪森：我认为，理解19世纪中叶中国战败遭受的屈辱如何影响国民意识并延续至其发展模式至关重要。但有趣的是，这种情况同时发生在中国和俄罗斯身上。实际上，如果回顾19世纪中叶，当时英国和法国在1853年克里米亚战争中入侵了克里米亚。这也产生了巨大影响，因为正是那时他们意识到必须实现工业化，因为他们看到了软弱的代价。这与针对中国的鸦片战争大致处于同一时期。但鉴于这种情况，目前看来，有助于塑造这一新国际体系的主要战略伙伴关系是中俄关系。那么，您认为中俄伙伴关系的本质是什么?其可持续性和实力的基础又是什么?

王文：没错，这个问题在国际媒体上很常见。一些西方媒体经常认为，中俄关系是一种盟友的关系。我觉得，这是一种国际关系理论知识的贫瘠。在他们看来，国家之间的关系被简单地理解为盟友、对手、敌人这几种。事实上，中俄关系远远超过西方国际关系理论的知识范畴。

诚如大家所知，在中方的外交话语体系中，中俄关系是好朋友、好伙伴、好邻居、不搞小圈子的关系。前面几种“好”的关系，都是能理解的，但西方国际关系理论中就理解不了“不搞小圈子”的关系。不搞小圈子是什么意思呢？它的意思是不希望把谁当成假想敌，拉出自己的盟友体系。中俄合作，更多的是为了自己、也为更好的共同发展。这既是一种感性的积累，又是一种理性的选择。

也许很多人不知道，中俄两国有4000多公里的边境线，然而15-20年以来，边境线上是没有驻军的，这为两国节省了大量的军费开支。但另一方面，如果中俄结盟针对另一个国家，那么，世界就会成重蹈冷战，甚至世界大战的覆辙。

所以，中俄关系是一种大国关系的新典范，是超过了自17世纪以来西方国际关系实践的一种创新。

当然，有人说，中国支持俄罗斯入侵乌克兰。我认为这是胡说八道。你不能把中俄两个主权大国之间正常、合法的贸易视为中国对俄罗斯“特别军事行动”的支持。从这个角度看，要让一些人更全面地理解中俄关系，还需要让他们增长更多的知识与智慧。

格伦·迪森：您之前提到美国试图搞垮中国经济，而中国可能不得不反击，这让我想到最后一个问题：美国正公开试图遏制中国崛起——过去这类举措还常被伪装成针对人权问题的制裁，但现在他们已直言不讳地承认“必须阻止中国崛起”，甚至扬言要“向体系内投掷手雷”。其手段主要集中在打压中国科技产业，金融领域次之，未来还可能破坏海运通道等交通命脉，这正是中国当前对两条岛链高度警惕的原因。回到贸易战问题，您认为中国是否有能力应对这些挑战？是会采取反制措施进行回击，还是仅被动调整适应？这个问题涉及层面较广。

王文：迪森教授，作为国际问题研究领域的权威，您对全局的把握自然远胜于我。但作为中国学者，我想从自身视角补充一点观察：当前美国集中动用科技实力与金融工具对中国进行遏制，这种策略选择本身恰恰折射出其综合国力的相对衰退。何以见得？关键在于美方始终不敢诉诸军事手段或直接发动战争——这恰恰证明中国国防安全体系已构筑起有效威慑。因此我才对当前这轮贸易博弈持有战略定力。

就贸易战而言，我早在今年初就写过两篇被具有广泛国际影响力的文章，一篇是《为什么美国不可能赢得对华贸易战》，另一篇是《感谢特朗普，让中国再次伟大》，其中后者被将近20个国家的媒体转发。现在的进展证实了我的判断。

自2018年特朗普发动了第一次对华贸易战和科技战至今已有七年。上一轮对中国的贸易战和科技战，特朗普已经输了。他既没有让中美贸易脱钩，也没有减少中国对美国的顺差，同样没有打败华为。相反，中美贸易总额仍保持着每年6500亿美元以上，高于2018年。中国对美国顺差保持在4000亿美元左右，也高于2018年。现在的华为公司，也比2018年要强。

过去七年的历史进程已然证明特朗普政府的战略是失败的，特朗普政府发起的对华贸易战、科技战变本加厉。在特朗普的第二任期，中国又重新获得了战略主动。本届美国政府上台后，对华遏制手段变本加厉，但这种故伎重施的旧思维注定重蹈覆辙。

其根本症结在于中国制造业的深厚根基。当前中国工业总产值已是美国的两倍，占据全球制造业产值的30%。美国从中国进口的商品中，约半数难以在短期内找到更具性价比的替代来源。这种结构性依赖决定了美方对中国制造的需求远甚于中国对美国市场的渴求。正是基于这种产业实力对比，我们才对赢得这场贸易博弈充满底气。

当然，贸易战肯定会对中国产生外部压力。但中国人很团结，也决不会屈服。中国解决出口的办法有许多，一方面，中国寻找更多的国际市场,如东盟、拉美、非洲、中东、俄罗斯、中亚等等。另一方面，正如你知道的，中国正在加大国内消费的刺激力度。

我可以给你算一笔账。中国人均储蓄 11万元，相当于1.4万美元。中国年均对美出口产品约5000亿美元。这就意味着14亿中国人人均多支出约350美元，就可以全部消化对美出品产品。从这个角度看，在这场中美贸易战上，中国非常有韧性，中国人也很团结。相比之下，美国内部矛盾很大，政治斗争非常激烈。

所以，我的结论不会变。中美贸易战，美国肯定输。未来一定会证明这的预言。

格伦·迪森：看起来中国确实有能力实现经济多元化，不过我原本很想向您请教金砖国家方面的有关问题，但时间不够了。希望今后能再邀请您深入探讨，到时我们再详细交流。非常感谢您抽出时间，我很感激。

王文：谢谢您，迪森博士。您太谦虚了。我知道您学识渊博，我只是从中国视角与您分享一些看法。再次感谢，期待未来在任何国家与您重逢，也欢迎您来北京做客。

格伦·迪森：我也很期待。谢谢。

专访内容英文版：

Glenn Diesen：Hi, everyone and welcome. I'm joined today by Wang Wen, professor and dean of Chongyang Institute for Financial Studies at Renmin University of China. You also are the deputy dean of the Silk Road School, as well as multiple other positions. So I'm not sure how you're managing to juggle it all so well done and of course welcome to the program. 

Wang Wen：Thank you, ProfessorDiesen. A long timeno see. I'm so honored to join your program. 

Glenn Diesen：Thank you.The topic I want to discuss with you of course isthe rise of China, which is, I guess what shapes the international system at the moment. And I thought we could start with a quote, which came about two years ago, when Xi Jinping told Vladimir Putinthat, “Right now there are changes—the likes of which we havenotseen for 100 years—and we are the ones driving these changes together”. So again, this caught the attention of many. But how do you understand thistransformative era we are living ingiven that there are huge changes? And obviously, China is front and center.

Wang Wen：In fact, that was not the first time that President Xi talked about the so called "centurieschange" orin Chinese language is that the“great changes havenot happened in hundreds of years”. Actually, if we revealed history of this term, at the end of 2017, President Xi Jinping made a speech at a working meeting to receive foreign envoys and proposed the concept of so called “Bai Nian Bian Ju”or "great changes havenot happened in hundreds of years" for the first time. Since then, so called "centurieschange"or“Bai Nian Bian Ju”or "great changes havenot happened in hundreds of years" now has become the most classic judgment of the current situation by China's decision-makers.

So as you mentioned, actually, in china in the past fiveor sevenyears, there are at least thousands of papers on what "centuries change" is. In 2020, I, with my colleaguepublisheda book. The book’s title is called "Profound Changes Unseen in Centuries", which later became a bestselling bookin China. I also wrote an academic paper onthis topic, and itcaughta great response and recitation in the Chinese academic community,and became one of the most typical representative works on this topic.

My understanding of this "unprecedented changes of centuries" is different from that of many people. I am not completely focuson "a century of change". Because we measuredthe centuries, so how many centuries?According to the meaning of the Chinese language, President Xi only emphasized "century" and did not emphasize how many centuries were there. So, in my opinion, there are at least five levels or five concepts of "century changes".

The first is that "a great change that has not happened in five hundred years". That isthe first level.That is, since the rise of the West in the Age of Exploration in the 16th century, Western civilizationnowhas experienced an unprecedented decline in the past 500 years.

The secondlevelisthatthe "great change that has not happened in 400 years". That is the unprecedented great change brought about by the AI evolution since the mechanical revolution in the 17th century. As we all know, since the 17th century,there happened the three scientific and technological revolution. Those were the mechanization, electrification, and computerization. These three roundsof technological revolution are all liberating human limbs and five senses. But this time the AIrevolution is liberating our brains. So this huge change is something that humans have never encountered in the past 400 years.

And the third level is the "great change that has not happened in 300 years". That is, since the 18th century, the democratic political system established in the West has entered an unprecedented decline. Democracy is a goodthing, of course. Democracy is a good word, anddemocracy once represented advancement. But now, the Western, especially in the United States, I mean the U.S. styledemocratic political system now is a little bit outdated. So the world needs an upgrade and revolution of the political system.

The fourthlevelis the "great change that has not happened in 200 years". That is, since the 19th century, the academic division system of universities established in the West has encountered a huge crisis. Both of us work in the university. We are very obvious know that nowadays the major division. For example, economics cannot explain economic phenomena very well; political science cannot explain political phenomenavery well; sociology cannot explain social phenomenavery well, and so on. So I think, in my opinion, the entire social science is facing an unprecedented reshaping of knowledge.

And the final thing. The fifth and last one is the "great change that has not happened in a hundred years", that is, the international system. The international system 100 years ago, was a system centeredby the North Atlantic as the power center since the early 20th century. But nowthe international system, I mean the center of the power system has been transferring tothe Western Pacific as the center.

So I think this is thefive level.To put it simply, that is, the civilization change that has not happened in five hundred years, the technological change that has not happened in four hundred years, the institutional change that has not happened in three hundred years, the knowledge change of university that has not happened in two hundred years, and the power change that has not happened in a hundred years. This is my systematic understanding of the current complexsystematic (changes).

Of courseI think, as you mentioned, some people they often explain that so called "unprecedented changes of centuries" is just regarded as the decline of the West or  the decline ofthe United States. I think thatis only a part of the phenomenon. We still need to look at this major changesof a hundred years from a more complex perspective.

So it’s a very complicated international evolution now,not only the power structure among the big powers,including the decline of the United States,but also in the technology level,in the knowledge level,in the institution level,and in the civilization level.President Xi mentioned this term,and now in China it’s very popular,very important.So I think if you want to understand what China is thinking now,you can startwith this terms.

Glenn Diesen：I think it's important to have that wider view, because often ifwe focus on the trade war between China and the US,seeing which country is moreyou know......the Chinese replacing the USas leading economy, but it becomes very narrower. If you don't look at the past 500 years terms of use connecting the world, also the financial connections there. As you said, the technologies as well. We had industrial revolutions in the past, but of course automating the cognitive is also something very different. 

Anyway, so Iwanted to move this along a bit as well to the more specifics that ofChina, because given all of these huge changes taking place, how does this translate into foreign policy objectives and priorities? What is it that China is trying to drive forward? Because again, this is very, very all these changes happening at once is very disruptive. And it's, I guess, also in china's interest to ensure that this disruption are done in an orderly, peaceful manner. So what is it that, what are the objectives of China?

Wang Wen：I think this is a very, very important question to understand the current China situation. But I have to say that China, as you mentioned, China's main goal orChina's a foreign policy target has never changed, which is to achieve the great rejuvenation of the Chinese nation. 

So why I talkedabout this?I think if you understand China's history over the past 100 years, it will be easy to find how strong the Chinese people's desire for national rejuvenation is. Since the Opium War in 1840, almost all Western powers have invaded China at that timesince the Opium Warin 1840, includingthe United States, Britain, France, Germany, Italy, and even Austria, even (soldiers from) Indiainvaded Chinain the end of 19thcentury. In the 20th century, Japan invaded China. From 1931 to 1945, the fourteen years, China's anti-JapaneseWar paid the price of more than 30 million casualties. In Nanjing in December 1937, the Japanese invaders massacred 300,000 Chinese in just 6 weeks. Now recalling this period of time, it is simply unbelievable.So for all Chinese people, it's a very bad memory. Every Chinese people, since our childhood, since in the primary school, the teacher told us, they said the history has taughtthe Chinese that backwardnesswould be beaten. If you are very weak, you will be beaten. So you have to become a strong nation. So I think the the strong country is a basic guarantee for national security and development. Look at the Palestine now. Look at Afghanistan. Look at Iraq 20 years ago, or Libya 15 years ago, so many negative lessons teach every year, every month, every day to Chinese people. So that's why we remembered.

In 1949, Chairman Mao Zedong said on the Tian'anmen Tower:The Chinese people have stood up since then. These sentence, on our National Days, the TVbroadcaststhe Chairman Mao’svoice. In the past 76 years, China has been working hard for national rejuvenation. Now, China has become the world's second largest economy and has not given up this dream.We will continue this dream of national rejuvenation. 

But on the other hand, China does not want to become a nation of revenge, and China does not want to repeat the old stories of "a strong country must be hegemonic" or"the strong bully the weak". We don't want to repeat this.Some people in the world, especially some people in the West, they always saythat China wouldinvade other countrieswhen China becomes stronger. I think that is because they judge others by their own standards, which is a reflection of their own dark (invading) history. They used to do this, so they think China woulddo the samein the future.

We often say that you look at the past seventy six years during theMao Zedong period, China solved the problem of "being beaten"; and during the Deng Xiaoping periodin the 1980s, China solved the problem of "being starved". Now, in the President Xi Jinping's period we have to solve the problem of "being scolded", that is, to gainmorerespectfrom the world.

So that's why, in the past ten years, China has proposed the "Belt and RoadInitiative”, the "Global Development Initiative", the "Global Security Initiative", the "Global Civilization Initiative", andalso we want to promotethe construction of a "Community of Shared Future for Mankind", hoping to make a strong China more respected.

And from this point, so I think nowadays as you mentioned, the current priority of China's foreign policyis how to make greater contributions to the future world through a series of cooperation and struggle, to gain more respectfrom the world, and then to achieve national rejuvenation. I think this process is not easy. Some countries do not understand China's diplomatic philosophy and even want to contain China. I think that at this time, China can only be forced to fightbackwith them.

But the problem is that as I mentioned struggle is just a methodology, and cooperation is our final target, is ourgoal. So that's whywe can see, over the years, China has fought against some Western political forces,andincluding the US governmentnowadays, but China does not avoid cooperating with all countries, including the U.S.government, for example if Trump wants to cooperate with us, we can cooperate with him. But if Trump wants to continue to contain us, we have to fight back. So I think China's priority  is to promote the sustainable behavior and work hard for our national rejuvenation. 

Glenn Diesen：I think it's important to know how the defeat and destruction of China in the mid 19th century impacted the national consciousness and still to its development models. What is interesting though, is China, this happened at the same time with both Russia and China. Actually, if you look at the mid 19th century, this is when the British and French invaded Crimea in the Crimean War in 1853. And also it had immense impact, because that's also when they realized they had to industrialize, because they saw the cost of weakness. And this is around the same time of the Opium wars against China as well. But given that, it seems now that the main strategic partnership which contributes to shaping this new international system is the Chinese-Russian one. So what do you see as being in the nature of the China-Russia partnership? And what's the foundation of its sustainability and strength? 

Wang Wen：I think this is a very popular question in the international public media. I think some Western mediasoften believe that the China-Russia relationship is a relationship of allies. I think thisis a kind of poverty of international relations theory knowledge. In their view, the relationship between countries is simply understood as allies, opponents, and enemies. In fact, the China-Russian relationship far exceeds the knowledge scope of Western international relations theory.

Actually as we all know in China diplomatic discourse, the China-Russia relationship is a relationship of good friends, good partners, good neighbors, and not engaging in small circles. The previous "good" relationships are all understandable.But the Western international relations theory cannot understand the relationship of "not engaging in small circles". What does that mean? I think not engaging in small circles means that you don't want to treat anyone as an imaginary enemy and pull out your own alliance system. And China-Russia cooperation is more for themselves and for better common development. This is both a perceptual accumulation and a rational choice.

I don’t know whether you know a lot of people cannot notice that China and Russia have a border of more than 4,000 kilometers. Because now, you know since 20 years ago or 15 years ago, there are no any troops stationingon the border now, which saves a lot of military expenditure for both countries. But on the other hand, if China and Russia ally and be againsttoanother country, then the world will repeat the Cold War or even the mistakes of the World War.

So I think China-Russia relations are a new paradigm of relationsbetween big powers. That is an innovation that exists the practice of western international relations since the 17th century.

Of course, some people say that China supports Russia's invasion of Ukraine.In my opinion, thatis nonsense. You cannot regard normal and legal trade betweenthetwo sovereign powers as China's support for Russia's "special military operations". 

From this point, I thinkin order for some people to understand China-Russian relationshipmore comprehensively, they need to gain more knowledge and wisdom.

Glenn Diesen：You mentioned earlier the American efforts to crash the the Chinese economyand that China might have to fight back and which takes me to my last question which isthe US efforts to prevent the rise of Chinawhich they are very open about.I think in the past, it was always concealed as you know just sanctions against human rights violations.But now the honest, it's more honesty now they're saying we have to stop the rise of China, so let's find a way of throwing a rangeinto the system. But they mainly go after the Chinese tech sector less extent to finance but also the possibilityin the futureof disruptingthesea-lanes, which is why and othertransportation corridors;which is why China is always worried about these two island chainsnow. What is going on in the trade warthough, do you also,do you see is China able torespond or adjust to these challengesand does it push back or retaliate in any way? So it's a very long question. 

Wang Wen：ProfessorDiesen, I know you are professional for the international studyyou know everything. But I just give you my angle as a Chinese scholar. In fact, the United Statesnowis focusing on usingtechnologicalskillsand finance to contain China, which in itself reflects the decline of the United States. Why do I talk about it? Because the fact that the United States does not dare to use military means or start a war to contain China. Thatproves the strength of China's security defense. This is an important reason why I remain confident in this round of trade war.

As for the trade war, I wrote two articles with extensive international influence as early as the beginning of this year, one is "Why the United States cannot win the trade war with China" and the other is "ThanksTrump, (for helpingmake) China great again", the latter articlewas reprinted by media in nearly 20 countries. The current progress confirms my judgment.

Because it has been seven years since Trump1.0launched the first trade war and technology war against China in 2018. Trump has lost the last round of trade war and technology war against China. He neither decoupled China-US trade relationship, nor reduced China's surplus with the United States, norevendefeated Huawei. On the contrary, the total trade volume between China and the United States remains above $650 billion per yearin the past seven years, higher than in 2018. And China's surplus with the United States remains at around $400 billion, also higher than in 2018. Huawei now is muchstronger than it was in 2018.

So that provesthat Trump was defeated in the past seven years. And this term, China comesto power again in this year, and the trade war and technology war against China was more intense. But this old approach willdefinitely fail.

The most important reason lies in China's strong manufacturing industry. At present, China's industrial output value is twice that of the United States, accounting for 30% of the world's industrial output value. About half of the products imported by the United States from China cannot find better alternatives. From this point, the U.S.needs Chinese products more, not China needs the American market more.So that’s why I think we have the full confidence on this trade war.

But of course,I admit thatthe trade war definitely put external pressure on China. But the Chinese are very united now.We will never give up. China has many ways to solve the export problem. On the one hand, China is looking for more international markets, such as ASEAN,Latin America, Africa, the Middle East, Russia, Central Asia, etc. On the other hand,as you may know,China is increasing the stimulation of domestic consumption.

I can do the math for you. Now the average Chinese savings per capita is 110,000 yuan, equal to around 14,000 US dollars.You know, every Chinese people, their savings.China's annual export to United States about maybe 500 billion US dollars. This means that if the 1.4 billion Chinese people spend an extra 350 US dollars per capita, they can fully absorb the products produced in the United States. From this point, China is very resilient and the Chinese are very united in this trade war. On thecontrast, the external contradictions in the United States are huge and the political struggle is very firm in the United States.

Therefore, my conclusion will not change. The United States will definitely lose the trade waragain. The futureI thinkwill definitely prove my judgement.

Glenn Diesen：It does looks as if China is able to diversify away from this, but I would have loved to pick your brain about BRICS, but we ran out of time, so I will hope to get you back in the future. So we can discuss it then. So thank you so much for your time. I appreciated it. 

Wang Wen：Thank you. DoctorDiesen. You are so modest. I know you know everything, but I just share with you fromChina’s perspective. Thank you again. I hope to see you again in any countries and welcome you to Beijing. 

Glenn Diesen：I look forward to it. Thanks.I will see you in September anyway.