编者按：近日，中国人民大学重阳金融研究院高级研究员刘志勤就“中国是否还属于‘发展中国家’或‘全球南方’”议题与香港大学当代中国与世界研究中心创始主任李成在CGTN《论见中国》节目中 再次对话 。英籍资深时政编辑John Goodrich、CGTN社交媒体专家李菁菁担任对话主持人。现将第六期（点击此处可查看往期内容 ）对话中英文视频及内容发布如下：（全文中英文约16500字，预计阅读时间30分钟）

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John Goodrich：中国是否还属于“发展中国家”或“全球南方”，这是最近媒体讨论的一个焦点。随着全球南方在世界舞台上的重要性日益提升，其声音愈发响亮。同时，中国已成为经济强国。

我们这里有一篇《外交政策》的文章，其核心论点是：中国庞大的GDP体量、贸易与投资规模，以及日益增长的创新能力和成功的军事现代化，意味着它已经具备大国资格。根据传统定义与认知，大国不属于全球南方。

但这种说法遭到了中国外交部长王毅的坚决否认。在两会期间记者会上，他特别回溯了中国遭受殖民压迫的历史。不过，刘教授，中国在过去四十五年发展了强大的经济实力，现在仍将其视为全球南方中的一员是否合理？

刘志勤：我认为判断一个国家是否属于全球南方，不能仅看经济指标。中国GDP规模全球第二，在经济发展角度确实是大国，但经济规模并非判断一国是否属于全球南方的唯一标准，而是需要综合政治体制、经济体系、文化、教育、医疗以及各领域基础设施等多重因素评判。

单就GDP而言，中国无疑是经济超级大国，稳居世界第二，不是普通意义上的简单发展中国家。但实际上，中国仍是发展中国家。

我们不能仅看北京、上海、深圳，现在还有杭州、武汉这些一线城市，它们的基础设施、教育、医疗都已高度现代化。中国人口基数庞大，过去四十年发展极不均衡。如果去中西部或西南地区，就会发现与一线城市存在巨大差距。因此，总体而言，中国仍属发展中国家。

John Goodrich：感谢您，这是个很棒的视角。菁菁，你长期在“全球南方”国家采访各界人士，从普通民众到官员政要，那么你接触的人是否认为中国属于全球南方？

李菁菁：当然是的，特别是当我前往非洲国家，与当地学者、民众交流时，就像王毅外长在记者会上强调的，中国始终是“全球南方”的天然成员。因为我们都有反抗殖民主义霸权主义的共同历史，这种情感在实地感受尤其强烈。

比如非洲朋友，得知我来自中国时，总会展现出特别的热情与友谊。这种情谊不是近年才建立的，某些国家污名化“一带一路”，说中国在“买下非洲”，但非洲民众并不这样认为。中非友谊可以追溯到上世纪五六十年代，当时中国自身也不富裕，却倾力援建了连接坦桑尼亚和赞比亚的坦赞铁路。正是这样的历史积淀，让全球南方始终视中国为兄弟。

因此，基于这样的共同历史，我们始终是全球南方的一员。同时，我们还有共同的未来目标，即建立对全球南方发展中国家公平的世界秩序。中国承诺永远做国际正义的支柱，为全球南方发声。

作为一名来自中国，游历全球南方国家的人，这就是我的感受。同时，我赞成刘教授的观点，不能仅用人均收入或GDP衡量发展程度。某些发达国家数据光鲜，GDP高，人均收入也高，但真意味着全民福祉吗？或许财富只集中在少数人手中。而中国，正如政府工作报告所述，正在着力缩小区域、城乡、人群差距，承诺加大农村投入，让发展成果全民共享。

基于这些原因，我认为中国当然是全球南方成员。

John Goodrich：李教授，从纯粹政治维度看，中国为何需要坚持“全球南方”身份认同？

李成：我的观点是，应当实事求是。中国已是世界第二大经济体，和二三十年前比较来看，人均GDP已发生翻天覆地的变化，所以，我对当前“中国仍属发展中国家”的叙事持保留态度。这种说法无助于缓解国际紧张局势。所以，这是我的观点：尽管我理解中国始终自认发展中国家的立场，但无论是全球南方还是西方国家，大家都对这一称谓普遍存在困惑。

所以说，发展中国家、全球南方成员们，正如刘教授所说，都乐意与中国合作，企业、工人、合作伙伴在一带一路倡议下，在三大全球倡议下，金砖国家框架内，上合组织框架内，而中国也乐于同他们协作。

主持人：“全球南方”这个标签真的重要吗？

刘志勤：是的，这个问题提得好，但这正说明中国是一个负责任的国家。正如我们始终强调的，或者说宣告的，中国不仅仅追求自身繁荣，我们希望能帮助世界其他地区。

这就是为什么中国有足够的努力和能力去建立不同组织，比如金砖国家，比如上合组织，或其他多边机制，在“一带一路”倡议下进行所有这些投资。这一切只为尝试让世界其他国家与中国共享发展机遇，实现共同富裕。因为中国不愿等待或浪费时间，再等二十年直到其他国家赶上来，这不是我们的原则，不是我们的方式，也不是中国哲学。

正因如此，中国始终致力于与世界各国共同进步。中国付出额外努力，即使明知“一带一路”投资规模巨大，我们有基础设施建设项目，有亚洲基础设施投资银行这一融资体系的银行来支持所有这些工程。其目的是希望全球南方国家能以同等速度、同等繁荣程度崛起。

正如习近平主席所说：“不让任何一个国家在世界现代化进程中掉队。”这与中国国内政策完全一致，扶贫路上，一个都不能掉队。当我们将此理念向外延伸时，并不意味着中国已是强大的发达国家，但是中国仍愿意耗费资金与精力去帮助世界其他地区。这与美国的方式截然不同，中国所有援助和项目不设内部政治前提条件，也不对当地政府提政治要求，只为谋取福祉，提升当地民众生活水平。

我们为何这样做？即使有些国家说中国很傻，你们还没完全真正富裕起来，却仍为别国花钱。为什么呢？因为中国在七八十年前遭受过相似的苦难，殖民主义、贫困、帝国主义压迫，我们深知人民经受的苦难与灾祸。正因如此，我们怀着同样的情感，渴望帮助世界尽早尽可能改善生活，这才是我们真正的想法。

李菁菁：我可以插句话吗？因为我怀疑这个问题背后的意图，通过这样提问，我感觉他们是想把中国和它的兄弟全球南方割裂开来。所以中国一直说“我们是全球南方的一员”，全球南方国家也认为中国属于他们，但全球北方却说“你们不属于全球南方”，这简直像教科书式的分而治之策略，企图把中国和它的伙伴朋友分开。

这就像总有人问“中国到底是社会主义还是资本主义”，因为中国始终强调“我们坚持社会主义，是有中国特色的社会主义，这就是我们的发展道路”。但当你不够发达、贫穷的时候，全球北方会说“看吧，你们贫穷落后就是因为搞社会主义”；现在中国发展起来了，掌握了尖端科技，他们又说“啊，你们富裕起来是因为搞了资本主义”。这就是要把所有成就都归功于他们的制度。所以我质疑这个问题的动机，但我想告诉全球南方的伙伴们和中国同胞，不要被这种问题干扰。

我的意思是，不要忘记我们的过去、我们的历史、我们未来的共同目标，坚持走自己的路，坚信我们的信念。

主持人：是的，归根结底，重要的是中国和这些国家正在合作，正如刘教授所说，为了改善人民生活。还有很多其他的方面，并且我们知道每个国家都是不同的，但从根本上说，我们可以实际看到正在发生的事情。我不确定我们给世界上的大多数贴标签是否重要。就如我们所见，正在发生的事情总体上是积极的。那么现在让我们进入公平的辩论话题……

刘志勤：但有一件事应该被强调，因为世界上存在许多误解，特别是在欧洲国家。他们说：“哦，中国愿意作为全球南方成员留下，只是为了享受更多来自发展中国家的利益。”我告诉他们：“这很荒谬，你们给过全球南方国家什么利益？我是说西方国家，尤其是七国集团或其他发达国家。”

中国发展经济不仅是依据政治体制，而是根据我们自己的非常现实的政策，这些政策满足人民需求，符合经济具体条件。这就是为什么我们说需求已经通过供应链得到满足，所以在这两方面，中国的经济发展确实以非常快的方式发展了。

但从另一方面看，正如我提到的，还有很多事情要做，在政治职能方面还有很长的路要走，还有文化教育方面，以及老龄化社会的文化教育和医疗保健，所有这些都应该被真正进一步提高，它们需要更多努力来实现，这对任何政府管理来说都不是简单或容易的工作。

但全球南方国家也应该看到，世界第二超级经济体中国，他们现在暂时无法与中国的经济标准相提并论，但我想他们应该很好理解我们，只有当中国能在与他们当今相同条件下发展得这么好，我认为他们应该对未来更有信心。因为如果中国能做到，如果中国能实现，我们也能做到。这就是中国应该保持作为全球南方一员的简单理由，因为我个人认为，中国仍然非常贫穷，在某些领域尤其薄弱。

所以从我个人的角度看，我当然希望中国明天就能宣布“我们是发达国家，我们不是全球南方，我们已经是先进国家”。但现实并不容易，这并不能实现，我们应该回到现实。

李成：我不太同意中国非常贫穷的说法，基于这点，我认为世界无论是西方还是南方，都不该用这种眼光看待中国。还有，如果你是个发展中国家，确实拥有世界贸易组织的特殊待遇，当然，对中国而言，这种待遇可能已变得不重要，但发展中国家与发达国家间的标准和规范差异仍然存在，我认为这是当前事实。

再次强调，我理解历史视角和中国自身定位，以及中国支持全球南方的意愿，但同时，我们需要知道其他发达国家，如日本也为发展中国家提供了大量援助。所以不只有中国，中国在中非合作论坛峰会等事务上做得很好，但有些发达国家也在这方面提供帮助。

我认为中国和其他国家可以相互学习，但我认为当一个国家达到特定发展水平时，帮助落后国家是我们的责任。我认为这是中国政府的政策，中国公众也应支持这种理念，而非仅以“我们是发展中国家”自居。因此，这不仅关乎地缘政治利益，更关乎经济现实。

如果我们真正相信双赢，相信基础设施建设能惠及他国，我认为我们需要重新思考南方与北方、发展中国家与发达国家的划分，因为我们正经历急速变化，不仅是地缘政治格局，还有经济版图。

以下为对话英文版：

John Goodrich: Topic two is does China belong to the "developing world" or to the "Global South".This is the debate that has centered media discourse recently. As the Global South has grown in importance in the world, its voices become louder. At the same time, China has become a great economic power.

We have an article here from Foreign Policy, in which an argument is made that China's share size high levels of GDP, trade investment, and increasingly innovation, and successful military modernization, mean that it now qualifies as a great power. By definition, a great power can not be part of the Global South. 

But this idea that China is not a member of the Global South was strongly refused by Foreign Minister Wang Yi. At the press conference on the sidelines of the Two Sessions, he refer back to the shade history of being subject to colonialism in particular.But Professor Liu, China has become a huge economic power over the past forty-five years. Is it still fair to say it's a member of the Global South?

Liu Zhiqin: I think when we make a decision which country should belong to the Global South, not only from the economic result. We know that China’s GDP is the second largest also it is one big power in the economic development. But this is not the single or only one requirement or criteria to make judgment, because it's a complexity or combination of different category. 

For instance, political system, or the economic system, culture, education, health care, also the infrastructure in different fields. So it's a combination of different factions and factors. From GDP figure, China is okay, it's a super power, it belongs to the second largest, so it seems that there is no doubt China is not a simple developing country. 

But actually China is indeed a real developing country. We cannot see China or look at China only in Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzhen, or even Wuhan nowadays in Hangzhou. 

We can see that's so well developed from infrastructure, from education, from health care that is also already very modernized. But China has a really huge population with unbalanced development in the past 40 years. If you go to western part of China or even mid part of China, south, western part of China, you can see big difference with those first tier cities. So that's why we say generally speaking that China is still a developing country.

John Goodrich：Thank you. That's a fascinating perspective. Jingjing, you've spent a lot of time talking to people, interviewing people in the Global South, from ordinary people to officials politicians. Do people you speak to think of China as a member of the Global South?

Li Jingjing: Oh yeah, definitely. Especially I went to some African countries and talked to a lot of African scholars, African people. You know, like what Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi said during the press conference, he emphasized China is naturally a member of the Global South. 

And because we have a lot of shared history fighting against colonialism, hegemonism, and I can feel that when I go to those Global South countries. And say when I go to African countries and interact with African people, when they know I'm from China, they welcome me with this warm hospitality and friendship. Because you know what, this friendship started not just in recent few years. 

Some countries demonize BRI project, saying it's just rich China that is buying up Africa, but to African people it's not. Because this friendship can go back to the sixties, the fifties, and back then China itself was very underdeveloped and still invest what it had in building this TAZARA railway which is the railway connecting Tanzania and Zambia. So for that friendship, Global South people really value China as forever as their brother. So of course with this shared history, we're always member of Global South.

And we also have a common goal in the future, which is building a fair world order which is fair to the Global South developing countries. And China also promise that China will always be the pillar of the justice, speaking for the justice of the Global South.

So that's what I feel as someone from China traveling to all those Global South countries. And also I agree with Professor Liu mentioned, you cannot just judge how developed this country is just based on this average income or GDP. As we know from some developed countries, GDP is high, average income is high, but does that mean everybody's life is much better? Or the money is controlled by just maybe twelve people. 

So in China, I think from the central government work report, it is really very clear that China wants to reduce the gap, the wealth gap between regions and also between people. China committed to invest more money in developing the rural regions to make sure the development fruit can be shared by everyone in this country. So for those reasons, I think China is definitely the member of the Global South.

John Goodrich：Professor Li, in pure political terms, why is it important for China to be seen to be part of the Global South?

Li Cheng: My view is to call the things in real name. China is already a second largest economy, China's GDP per capita has already made a significant change look at just twenty years ago, thirty years ago. So, I have the reservation with this kind of narrative, I think that it's not the right way to approach the global tensions. So again, this is my view, I understand you know Chinese constantly think they are still a developing country, but I think from the outside world, whether Global South or whether Western countries, they just confused with that term.

John Goodrich：So, developing countries, Global South members, as Professor Liu said, are happy to work with China, corporates, workers, partners, under the Belt and the Road, under the three global initiatives, within BRICS, within SCO, and China is happy to work with them.Does the label of "Global South" really matter?

Liu Zhiqin: Yeah, that's a good question. But this shows that China is a country with full responsibility. As we have always mentioned or announced, China is not only working for our own prosperity, we hope to help the rest of the world. That's why China has enough effort and power to establish different organizations like BRICS, like SCO, or other organizations to make all this investment along the Belt and Road Initiative. 

All this is just to try to make the rest of the world develop at the same time with common prosperity with China. Because China will not like to wait or waste time waiting for another 20 years until other countries catch up. This is not the principle, not the way, not the Chinese philosophy. That's why China always tries to make progress together with the rest of the world. 

That's why China has made extra efforts, even we know that for Belt and Road Initiative investments are huge, and also we have infrastructure projects, we have AIIB, this bank financing systems to support all these projects. For the purpose that we hope Global South can rise up with the same speed, same prosperity. Like President Xi Jinping said, "No country should be left behind (in global modernization)." This is exactly like China's domestic policy, no one in extreme poverty should be left. 

This is a similar policy that when we extend it outside China, it doesn't mean China has already a strong enough developed country, but China still has spent its money, spent its effort to save the rest of the world. 

This is different from the United States' way, all these assistance and projects that China has proposed have no inner political preconditions or requirements on local governments, just for benefits, to improve the living standards of the local. Why do we do this? Many countries, even they said China is quite stupid, you're not totally real rich but they will still spend a lot of money for the rest of the world. For what reason? 

Because China has similar sufferings before 70-80 years ago, from colonialism, from the poverty, from the suppression by the imperialism, we know the sufferings and disasters that people are having. That's why we have the same feeling, we wish to help the rest of the world to get the better lives as soon as possible as better as possible. This is really what we're thinking.

Li Jingjing：Can I jump in? Because I feel like I doubt the intention of the question. Because by asking that, I feel like they are trying to separate China from other Global South countries, its brothers. 

So China has always been saying "we are a member of the Global South". Global South countries think China is a member of the Global South, but the Global North is saying "well, you are not a Global South". So it's kind of like a textbook divide-and-conquer strategy, trying to separate China from its buddies and friends.

And also, it's kind of like those who ask questions about "is China still socialism or capitalism". Because China has been saying we are practicing socialism, we are socialism with the Chinese characteristics, that's how we developed. But when you were less developed, when you were poor, the Global North tended to say "well, you are poor, you are backward because you are socialism". Now China is much better off with cutting-edge technology, they say "oh, you are rich because you adopted capitalism". 

So it's been trying to credit everything to themselves, to their system. So I feel like I doubt the intention of this question. But my message to my Global South fellows and Chinese fellows is don't be distracted by questions like this. I mean, don't forget our past, our history, our shared goals in the future, just stick to ourselves, just believe what we believe in.

John Goodrich：Yeah, I mean, what matters at the end of the day is that China and these countries are working together. And as Professor Liu said, to improve lives. And you know, there's all kinds of other things that are going around that, and we know every country is different. But fundamentally, we can see what's happening in practice. I'm not sure it matters that we label for most of the world, we put a label on it, what's important is what's actually happening. What's happening is generally a positive thing as far as we can see.So let's move on to our fair debate topic now...

Liu Zhiqin: But one thing should be emphasized, because there are many misunderstandings in the world, even especially in the European countries. 

They said: "Oh, China is willing to stay as a member of Global South just because it’s willing to enjoy more advantages from the developing countries." I told them: "It's nonsense, what advantages that you have given to the Global South countries." 

I mean, the Western countries, especially the G7 or the other developed countries. So also China developed its economy not only according to the political system, but it's according to our own policy, very realistic that they meet the needs of the people, meet the needs of the economic concrete condition. 

That's why we say that the demand is already get satisfied with the supply chain. So in these two sides, China's economy has really developed in a very fast way. But from the other side, a lot of, as I mentioned, there's still a long way to go in political functions, and the cultural education and healthcare in aging society, all these problems should be really further improved. They recognized by more efforts, there is not a simple job or easy job for any government administration at the moment. 

But also the Global South, I think they are also to see the No.2, the super economic power of China, they current cannot make comparation with China's standard, but I think they should understand us very well. If China can develop itself so good with the same conditions as they had nowadays, I think they should have more confidence for their future. Because if China can do it, if China can achieve it, we can also do it. 

This is the very simple reason that China should be remained as one member of the Global South. Because in reality, China is still very poor, very weak in some areas especially. So in my personal idea, I hope that this situation of course, I hope China could announce tomorrow "We are developed country, we are not Global South, we are already well advanced country". But the reality is not so easy, it's not true, we should come to the reality.

Li Cheng: I disagree with the perception China is very poor. And with that one, I don't think the world whether be the West or whether be the South should look at China in that light. And also that: if you're a developing country, it does have the WTO, you know, kind of special treatment.

And of course, for China maybe that treatment has become far less important, but still that some of the standards and the norms differ between developing countries and developed countries. 

I think that's a fact. Now again, that I understand from the historical perspective and from China's own identity and from China's sense to support Global South, but also we do need to know that some other developed countries like Japan also provide tremendous foreign aid for developing countries. So it's not only China, China did well in the African Summit and some other things, but some of them, the developed countries also reach out to provide help in this regard.

I think China and other countries maybe learn from each other, but I think that when the country reaches certain level of development, it's our responsibility to help those countries behind. I think it's government policy in Beijing, I think the Chinese public also need to support that idea rather than just think "we are developing country". Therefore, that not only in the geopolitical interest, but even the economic reality.

If we really believe win-win, if we do believe that a kind of infrastructure development can benefit others, I think that we do need to rethink all these things about the South versus North, developing country and developed country, because we are in very rapid change, not only geopolitical sense but also economic landscape.

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